Clive's bag of sour grapes

Woodward under fire!

Sir Clive 'Whingeward' got a lot of stick from our readers over his comments that he couldn't see the point of fielding a weakened team against the Barbarians. We asked if you thought he had a point, or if it was just sour grapes? Here are your (rather strong) opinions...

"When will Clive Woodward just accept an honourable defeat? He has probably the biggest player base in the world to choose from and only a short while ago was boasting about his second string beating Wales in a friendly. When he loses to a Barbarians side which failed to score a point against a Welsh team pitifully short of some of its first choice players it's someone elses fault. If English Rugby is truly full of World Championship class players then even the third string should win. Is he unable to accept that defeats come to everyone. The playing schedule has been in place for some time. So much time spent on the public speaking circuit that he forgot about the game perhaps? Which other team in the World Cup spent so much money? Has his training schedule left the English game with spent-out overtrained players?"
- Claire Shill

"Sir Clive Woodward is at it again... a week ago he was "excited at blooding young players". Then England lose against a star-studded but hardly cohesive team, and suddenly he is 'frustrated at fielding a third-string side'. What's it to be? It's like the squad he's chosen for NZ and Australia. Win, and he can still say "I'm da man" but lose to NZ and/or Oz, and he can fall back on his 'inexperienced team' excuse. Grow up, Sir Clive."
- Eric Janssen, London

"Like it or not, Clive Woodward has an obligation to put England on display against the likes of the Barbarians. It comes with being World Champions. Is he to cancel any and all matches until and unless the England side is at full strength? Perhaps he doesn't want the world to see that England is a team of little depth and a lack of creativity. So goes Wilkinson, so goes England?

"Clive better get used to the spotlight because it will be shining on England until 2007. If he can't handle it he is in the wrong business."
- Doug Lyons, Worcester RFC (USA)

"It's clearly an excuse. The Barbarians tour has been a tradition for decades and to claim now that it's pointless because his prima-donnas in white lost is the latest in the appalling spotrsmanship of Sir Clive."He should apologize for these comments to rugby fans everywhere.Perhaps he was embarrassed that the vaunted England depth-chart could do no better than the woeful Scots."
- Mark C. Welshman in New Jersey

"Clive Woodward needs to stop making excuses. England were abysmal against the Barbarians. Their lineout was almost as bad as the full teams lineout was during the Six Nations (especially against Ireland) and their scrum was often a shambles. All these players are Premiership professionals if Woodward can't organise them into something less pathetic than that, he should hand back his Knighthood! Woodward should be made to refund everybody who wasted their money going to watch this excuse for an international team. As usual, Woodward talked a good game describing how he had prepared them for an International, like they were the full England team. In actual fact the organisation, motivation and general attitude of the team was an insult to English Rugby! And once again, Sir Clive Whinger was ready with his bag of excuses after the match."
- Malcolm Finch, Hendon, London

"A disjointed and disorganised performance by what was effectively England's 4th/5th team does not excuse SCW's unimaginative selection. This was not a very young inexperienced squad. With the exception of the outside backs and three or four forwards, this was a collection of Premiership journeymen unlikely to figure in England's planning except in extreme circumstances."Any lingering hopes anyone in this side held about future selection were surely demolished by the most inept half back display in a white shirt for many years.Far better to have picked a side drawn from the U21 grand slam winners with more hunger and more imagination."
- David, Sussex

"Yes, Sir Clive has a point regarding the selection situation in regards to the Baa-baas matches. Yes, it is quite difficult to have a first-class XV run out to take on a veteran all-star team, especially with many of your top players away on club duties. However, I think Sir CW should look at this game from a different point of view. Given the talent, experience and overall quality of the opposition, this game would be the perfect opportunity to throw the youngsters out onto the pitch and see how things go. While the Barbarians probably would win most of the time, the lessons the English youngsters learn on the pitch (and from mistakes and plenty of them to be sure) will later become invaluable. It would show Clive who could rise up for the occasion and those who cannot hack it. Sir Clive should not only consider the learning aspects of this game, but should also take a look at the older and established players. Can Clive afford to have his top players suiting up against a top-rate team, after a taxing, marathon season? Not only that, but to go out afterwards on a grueling summer tour, all the while being in top fitness? Realistically, Sir Clive will not be able to pick the cream of the crop when it comes to the Baa-baas. Instead he should look to the future when it comes time for the selections."
- Jonathan Nagelberg

"He can't have it both ways. Modern rugby is a tough game, sometimes you only get one chance, or so he said in the build up to the match. The team he selected blew it, collectively and most of the individuals as well."Yes, he was always going to have to pick a team other than his full test side, but that isn't the same as having to choose tyros at every position, something that (with the exception of hooker) he choose to do. Yes with Bath, Wasps, Leicester and Sale all playing the day before he lost a number of key players. With injuries etc. he lost some more.
But there are players around at Gloucester, Northampton, etc. with some experience without injuries that he could have picked. They might be tired, they might be going away on tours during this week, but he could have picked them - Dallaglio will be going on tour, he played the day before, and the same is true for others."He made his bed, he must lie in it."
- Lewis, York

"With the massive player numbers England has - surely they should be able to field a 'B' team capable of playing a festival team like the Baa-baa's? I remember the All Blacks 'B' team NZ sent over to England a few years ago almost beat a full strength England test team but every time England field a second string team they get hammered. Where is the depth?"
- Mitchell Knight

"Ok lets get ready for plenty of whingeing from Woodward. This is the start of his whingeing season and there is going to be plenty of that after the tour to NZ and OZ when England get sent home to think again on their tour this month. I am surprised he hasn't started already to cover his ass before England gets humiliated in their southern hemisphere tour. What a whinger! Please do us all a favour just get out here so we can have a crack and then shut-up!!"
- Mark Macfarlane, Sydney

"Ah, a whinging Pommy, who would have thought? It seems that when old Clivey-boy isn't fondling "Bill", he starts to get a little teary.

"For us to play against a Test side which has been playing together for months would be a different matter, though. Something between the two is the ideal answer.

"How about a box of tissues if it all gets too much? Maybe a few Tim-Tams and a nice hot cuppa? There, there, mate - it's all over now.

"But for Christ's sake, blow it out your arse, mate."
- Alex, Melbourne, Australia

"Sounds suspiciously like sour grapes from Mr Woodward. England lost- deal with it Clive."
- EC, Auckland, NZ

"If you pick a side to represent your country, and wear the country's colours. Then one would expect that you would pick a side of first class players. To then say there is no point in playing if the other side is better than yours does ring a little hollow. "As always, it's the side that plays best in the conditions, on the day, that wins. Well, almost always.Perhaps Sir Clive should realise there is a tour of Australia and New Zealand coming up, so get used to the feeling of not winning! (One J. Wilkinson, is not playing!)"
- Brian Jones, New South Wales

"EXCUSES!! No matter what the results are when England Rugby play, win or lose they have excuses.
Eng Vs Bar, Eng vs. France, Eng vs. Ireland!

"And now to come , Eng vs. Aus vs. NZ , More excuses to come Sir Clive??

"Start acting like World Champs not World Chimps!"
- Andre Van Rensburg

"Excuses, excuses, excuses! Wales only had five of the Six Nations teams on show and still won 42-0!!"
- Jonathan Beckley

"No better evidence needed that this game was simply a money spinner than the fact that the biggest cheers of the day came for paper aeroplanes being launched from the stands. Sitting in the north stand I was embarrassed both by how poor England were and by how poor the crowd were. Twickenham has become so corporate now that no one seems interested in what many have paid upwards of £40 to see - a rugby game."
- Dan

"You play a third team, expect third team rugby. With the end of the season the way it is, they should either do away with this fixture or move it to pre-Xmas. Punters pay good money to go and see this and to be honest have been let down by this fixture year on year. I wouldn't expect to pay £30-£40 to go and see a team train. I feel sorry for Woodward as he has to take the flak for the RFU or who ever it is who set up this fixture."
- Damo

"Yep, Clive certainly has a point as long as he always uses his full strength side when they are available, though at the end of the day I guess the world cup was won under him so whatever he says goes. Not biased honestly."
- Anon

"The team put out was supposedly the best available. In that case it was an insult to the Barbarians and to the paying public. "It is extremely difficult for any newcomer to the international stage to make an impact, but when he is amongst so many other newcomers, lacking a core of experienced playmakers, then it becomes pointless."
- Alan Longland

"Whinge, whinge, grumble, grumble. Sir C does make a valid point, but could all other rugby nations not also claim restrictions as result of their domestic structures and politics? I think it's an excuse."Welcome to life at the top Sir C, a burden the southern hemisphere nations (particularly NZ and SA) have had to carry and sacrifice for, for the better part of the past century. How will the young England dynasty weather?"
- Alan Lewis

"Clive Woodward has got to learn to take the rough with the smooth, I never hear him saying that England won because they played an under strength opposition like the NZ Baa-baas last December, or development sides like Australia and New Zealand last June.

"Every year England play weakened southern hemisphere teams in the November tests, often England lose, but when they do win you can't shut Clive up...

"Someone needs to explain to Clive that if he wants to gloat he must also learn what its like to be laughed at. Of course Clive is more likely to put his aluminium foil hat back on and listen to the voices inside his head telling him all is OK."
- Phil Moore, Maidenhead

"I feel it is a valid point for sir Clive to make, as it was the team sent to Australia that won the World Cup and became number one in the world - not the team fielded on Saturday."
- David Aubrey, 13, London