"Back to the bad old days"

Tuesday November 22 2005
The England fans' take on Saturday's match

The mails have been flooding in since Saturday's absorbing clash, accusations of bias on both sides, one-eyed local reporting, foul play, bad refereeing. Here is the pick of the mail from England fans...

The England team seem to have gone back to the bad old days when the backs were there just to make up the numbers. It is about time we chose backs with  some ball handling skills. I though we would improve now we are involved in sevens again but it doesn't seem to have made any impact on the 15-a-side game. We have a lot of youngsters who have good ball handling skills, We should get rid of all our present backs whose only tactic is to run straight at the opposition and eventually to turn over the ball.

Les Blaber

A cracking game - I thought our forwards were immense and did actually manage to raise their game again from last week which I didn't think they would - although it I still think Lewis Moody is not an openside. However, until we can pick a couple more creative players in our back line we are never going to seriously threaten the top teams in the world. Micheal Lynagh made the point that our backs didn't make one line break in the game - at the top level of international rugby that is an appalling statistic. New Zealand on the other hand possess quality that unfortunately we can only dream about and for the sheer skill level they play the game with I think they probably deserved the win today (even if the first try was off a forward pass - obligatory whinging pom remark). They rightly deserve to be called the best in the world at the moment as their rugby is a complete joy to watch and in Dan Carter they have a frightening talent - also seems a top bloke as well.
 
Note to Andy Robinson - I watched a some highlights of a game between Leicester and Gloucester the other night and James SD (playing outside centre) did something really amazing - he cut a beautiful running line then sidestepped someone - that's right - he didn't run over them or through them but past them - amazing. He also finished it off with a cracking pass that went to hand - not behind the player - not above his head but actually to his hands - it was a thing of beauty. In Lewsey, Cohen and Cueto we have a back three who will cause problems but we need something with a bit if flair in the midfield to create some space for them.

Gareth Richards.

I think that England can take a lot of positives out of the game but, I hope that Andy Robinson has learned some good hard lessons from our game against the All Blacks. That Jamie Noon does not have the pace to make it at the very top of international rugby. Robinson should replace him with either Olly Smith or Leon Lloyd (Smith is my choice). Mike Tindall is out of form and Andy Robinson should let him go back to his club and find some form before he gets back into the England team. Matt Dawson is past his best. The sooner we get Harry Ellis into the team and give him a good long run in the team to develop the better. Pat Sanderson is a openside flanker not blindside and drop Lewis Moody for Tom Rees, Moody runs around like a headless chicken giving away penalty all game.
 
The positives that came out of the game was that Steve Borthwick is finally coming of age as a international lock, as is Pat Sanderson an international flanker. Another positive is that we forced New Zealand to turn out the ball. If we can get a backs coach who can get our backline firing then maybe we can start believing that we can beat the all blacks.

John Bell.

What a game! After running riot against Wales and Ireland, New Zealand came up against a hugely committed England forward pack. England did what the other home nations couldn't do and matched the All Blacks physically. The physical power of the England side caused far more mistakes than the Lions ever exposed, however, NZ showed a cutting edge behind the scrum that England couldn't match.

It was a massive performance from England, but NZ showed that they can grind out a win when required, even though they resorted to illegal means to desperately try to keep England out. New Zealand will move on to a deserved Gram Slam, as England reflect on the best game that they have played for sometime, but couldn't quite win. A creative talent is required in midfield.
James Simpson Daniel, your time must be now!

Steve Fitzpatrick

A fantastic defensive effort by the All Blacks to take a deserved victory when reduced to 14 players, and briefly 13, for 24 minutes of the game!

Its a shame that Northern Hemisphere scribes are not being a bit more magnanimous in defeat as that is certainly not an easy achievement at test level.

The sin bin calls were marginal, where the ref could have resorted to the yellow card for similar offences earlier in the game against BOTH sides, however this sort of debate would detract from a very absorbing game.

While people marvel at the 65 per cent possession of the English team in the second half there should be concern that nothing constructive came from that possession, particularly against 14 players, nor looked likely that it ever would. In addition, the much vaunted English forwards were bettered during the match particularly at the scrum time where the All Blacks had them going backwards on occasion and wheeled them at will.

It should also be remembered that the All Blacks were without their No 7 for about 22 minutes of those 24 which hampered turnovers and should 15 players have remained on the park one cant help but suspect that they would have comfortably pulled away in the second half rather than play defensively.

So great game and hats off to the All Blacks for showing great character in the face of adversity!

Peter Annand

Youve got to ask yourselves where New Zealand go from here.  Against an England team only two games into rebuilding and with a very pedestrian back line, the All Blacks had to resort to dropping mauls and going off their feet time and again plus the usual assortment of non-tackles and offsides, some of which the referee picked up, for once.  NZ pulled 3 yellow cards, and Dan Carter was lucky to get away with staying on the field after throwing the ball off when he couldnt control to touch it down.  Lucky for him, because he then got the chance to thread a forward pass through for the equalising try.  Lucky New Zealand.

Fact of the matter is that the ABs got locked out by a team which shaded them up front, and hassled them behind the scrum.  If I was a Kiwi, Id be very worried given that people are already calling this the best All Black team since 1997, how much can they improve in the next 2 years?  England almost nicked it, and theyve got a massive list of things they can improve players, tactics, skills and conditioning.  Theres nothing as funny as Kiwi hubris I was at the semi-final in 1999, and this smells very much like the same thing.  Yip.

Jon Jones

I guess inevitably when there is such a close context there will be a focus on some of the marginal decisions which could have swung the contest in the other direction had they been judged differently. However the key area for me is the England back line. Although Dawson, Tindall, Cohen and Lewsey are still there from the World Cup winning lineup, it is the names that aren't which are the key. Amongst other things Charlie Hodgson lacks Jonny Wilkinson's destructive defensive ability but more importantly for me, without the attacking flair that Will Greenwood and Jason Robinson were able to provide, England look lacking in ideas in attack and very one-dimensional. Time to experiment with some new midfield combinations against Samoa I think.
Having said that I thought that England would be doing well to stay within 20 points of the All Blacks so in some ways not too bad !!
 
Stuart Hicks

over-hyped AB's made to look v ordinary and cynical. the first NZ try was a blatant forward pass so actual score had England winners 19-16. AB's will have to do better to keep World Cup hopes alive, meanwhile future for England looks bright for 6N's onwards. a poor day for the blacks who hang on at the end.

Timmo

I take a lot of heart from the performance that England put in over the weekend and also from a lot of the comments made in the press if there is a lot of doom around from an English point of view it shows we are expecting more these days and were very disappointed to lose a match that so called experts were predicting a mauling beforehand.

To me we achieved more than parity in most forward areas, a fact proven by the possession and territory statistics, particularly in the second half. Curiously, the one area we struggled to impose ourselves was in the scrum, despite the pre-match build up in this area. It looked to me like New Zealand were able to disrupt ours more than we were able to disrupt theirs.

The principle area of concern is what we did with all that possession. If we had the Australian backs behind those forwards (for example), I believe that we should have won by 20 points. However, we dont and we didnt. The areas that most need addressing are scrum half (Dawsons pass is now so slow that even I could get to Hodgson before he had any time to do anything with it) and inside centre (Tindall is not an IC as his pass is poor and decision making limited). To a lesser extent the back row needs reshaping personally I feel that both Corry and Moody are better blindside flankers and Sanderson is a better openside.

All in all, however, it was not a bad outing at this stage of the year and we will gain a lot of encouragement from the fact that some semblance of our forward dominance is re-emerging.

John Coppins

Why can't the video referee contact the match ref. (in this case Alan Lewis) to inform him that so called tries are not in fact tries.

I am of course referring to the All Blacks 1st try, the pass was forward by a mile and 7 points never were.

To my mind,E England need to run the angles a lot more outside and come in at pace on to the ball.They also need to recycle 2nd phase ball much quicker.

This was a superb game of rugby and on the whole refereed  well, but time and time again the Blacks get away with murder as per Super12 rules!! Roll on the 6 Nations.

Tony Wood

England have a reasonable, possibly good, potentially great, forward pack.

They have little else, save for an ever-improving winger in Cueto, a brave full-back in  Lewsey, and a more confident and assured outside-half in Hodgson.

They need a scrum half (Dawson can't go on for ever, unlike Gregan, and Ellis does not appear to be the answer).  They need two centres. Tindall hasn't yet learned how to pass the ball, and both he and Noon have only one tactic, barge in and hope, likewise Cohen.  And wouldn't it be wonderful to see someone like Underwood or Robinson, who on receiving a half decent pass, immediately get the crowd up on their feet in anticipation. (Instead of the sloth currently occupying the left wing slot?)
Cohen does have some good points, but I just wonder if he could be coached into playing at flanker.

Until England can unearth some talented, speedy backs, we will be condemned to watching them pound the opposition into submission but still lose.

Let's not get excited if they win the 6-Nations, because Ireland and Wales have gone backwards at an alarming rate of knots, Italy and Scotland present no real challenge to anyone, and France are France.

But what is really alarming is that a three-quarter can become an almost automatic selection in an England side before he's learnt the art of handling.  ALL of the All-Blacks forwards are better passers of the ball than Tindall.

Overall, an improvement on post World-Cup performances.   England has perhaps at last now realized that the title "World Champions" means nothing other than that your opponents perhaps try a little harder, and the displays against the Wallabies and the All Blacks were at least spirited performances with some passion and pride, albeit very little skill.

Mike Flannery

The best overall performance from an England team since that night in Sydney.
 
The factor that Corry is so gutted that we lost speaks volumes.  AB's were 8 - 1 on to win, and the bookies were giving England a 20 point head start.
 
Our backs seem to be going in reverse though.  There was 0 creativity, and only the back 3 really deserved any praise.  Tindall and Noon are miles away from international class, and certainly Tindall would have benefited more from game time back at Glos. 
 
Not sure what changes AR is going to make next week, but a combination of Abbott, Smith or JS-D PLEASE!!!

Angela Hair.

Can we bring a halt to the hype surrounding this mob.
 
And this haka nonsense, if the boot were on the other foot it would be deemed offensive.
 
The Springboks could and should have beaten them on the last four occasions they`ve met, and if the `Boks ever again get round to picking on merit, I`d back them against this cheating bunch every time.
 
How about three yellow cards making a red,  just a thought, as it might deter this shower from cheating with impunity.

Stuart McKerral.

An enjoyable encounter and very interesting to see how England managed to properly expose New Zealand's game in the following areas:
 
- constant infringements outside the tackle area and away from the action
- the AB No. 8 consistently exploiting referees' reluctance to call for offside in fear of breaking up the game
- the fact that in rugby union, the video referee can only consider the grounding of the ball, not the forward pass that comes before the try (it's remarkable how often NZ get away with forward passes in decisive moments of games... )  
- consistent professional fouls; exposing a cynicism and destructive element to their game which can't be reconciled with the recent elevation of NZ being the drivers of the modern game. Unless this is the modern game?
 
It appears that the modern game which the All Blacks are the advocates of is a hybrid between Rugby League and American Football, not Rugby Union.

Henry Tonnesen.

Having squandered the chance to give some future stars a break in the first two matches of this series , Robinson needs a major overhaul in personnel for Saturday with a view that anyone who stands out must be seriously be considered for the six nations games even if they aren't from Bath or one of his mates. ( How out of his depth is Stevens !!!)

We need to replace 9 through 13 as a minimum now if we have any aspirations of the world cup and need a serious look at some options in the pack such as Mears , Rees, Freshwater, Gillies, Palmer and Deacon.  Backs wise we have a huge pool of talent in centres and wings which seems ignored in pursuit of copycat bangers such as Tindall noon & Cohen supplemented from the bench by England least creative 12 , it would be nice to seen Shaun Perry a given a try at 9 and some acknowledgement that the genius of Charlie Hogson ( that has not broken the gain line for the last two weeks or put anyone through it ) may not be the  solution against the better sides.

Peter Scales.

Everyone agrees. We need creativity in the back line but we also need sound judgment on the field at ALL times. The game was for the taking and we went for the penalty! How many time have we seen that in the past. The forwards had the edge and that misjudgment was probably what costs us the game. You can blame it on the back line for not creating openings but they defended well and arguably you play with what you have. Their in-ability to penetrate does not mitigate a bad play call. Catch and drive and we could well have snatched the day.

So how should we change the back line?. If Andy Robinson is not keen to put the likes of Abbot and Smith in the centre to add some spark because he is concerned he will weaken our defence how about the obvious choice with the 22 squad from Saturday. Van Gisbergen to Full Back and Josh Lewsey to Inside Centre. He plays centre for Wasps on occasion and is an adept line breaker with grit to match (with Noon or Tindle outside him). You lose none of the combative element but gain speed and vision.

And as for the question "How do you stop Daniel Carter?"............no need!! He is a great player but when it comes down to it he did not win the game. We gave it away. If we get selection right and create the missing back line spark and ensure that on field judgement is always to our strengths (!) we needn't worry. It's not as if we didn't have enough possession. We just need to work out how to make the most of it.

So as for the 2007 World Cup.......and contrary to "that" Mobile Phone Company...............The future is bright................the future is White.

Andrew Perkins.

Great victory for the All Blacks but a tremendous start to England's return to the International stage and a not too peaked performance for the next two years for the defence of the RWC in 2007.  Time to start blooding some new backs and how about starting with Flood & Tait ?
 
Great stuff England,  you are on track to win in 2007.  Never mind all the "want it now' critics this is where they need to be to reach the pinnacle in two years. 
 
Bob Wise.